Whenever I say that art should not be JUST about selling, I am usually met with a mixed bunch of responses. Thankfully some of you still think that it's about passion, freedom of expression and doing what you love in life. Unfortunately, I am also usually met with a barrage of 'you give me shelter and pay my bills and I will stop trying to sell my art' and 'go preach to someone else'. I am quite shocked at such hositility considering that I spend my entire life trying to help/nurture other artists. Oh, and I'm not writing this to get a bunch of gratitude. I would just love to hear some opinions.
I feel I have to explain myself. We set this site up for artists to have a haven, somewhere they can feel inspired and feel that their creativity is nurtured. THAT'S THE MAIN OBJECTIVE. Secondary to that, we feel that having recommendations is the best form of advertising and is why we promote the artists rather than them promoting themselves. Self promotion is hard to swallow for most people and can turn off any potential buyer. Equally, having a site that's full of links to other websites is uninteresting and is why we don't allow people to JUST post their links. I feel I have to say JUST in capitals because so often this is misunderstood. We have nothing against people adding their links to interesting posts/blogs.
What I don't understand, please help me out, is why some people feel that we're doing a bad thing here. Is it wrong to want to nurture creativity? Is it wrong to give exposure to others? What could be easier, people give us interesting content on our site and we do all the exposing for you! All for free. You talk passionately about what you love to do and people will enthuse with you. You will hook people in with your enthusiasm and knowledge, not with spam.
Another vitally important factor that people forget is that your online reputation is vital. Post you've made 5 years ago are still there in cyber space somewhere and will come back and bite you on the bum. Sending people spam and aggressive or rude messages is not very professional and will not create a good impression. I will never buy from you and I too am a potential customer.
I strongly feel that selling anywhere, online or on the high street, is about building/forging relationships. Most of my paintings (except 2) have been sold to people who know me personally or have had some personal contact with me. I have been doing this for 9 years and it is still so. This is why I feel strongly that 'in your face' marketing does not work and is why I have adopted this way of operating this site. Some of the members here have purchased from other members (including myself) and just proves this point. Forging relationships works, building trust works, being recommended works.
Meanwhile we can hopefully all enjoy a little commercial free haven where selling is not THE most important factor, be inspired and impart our knowledge. 
Who knows where that could lead!
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written by gringrimaceandsqueak, May 24, 2010
We agree completely, there are plenty of places you can sell online, but its also important to feel a sense of community, to have people you can share news with, ask questions, that understand what it is to be an artist. Anyone who doesnt get that is missing out, but if they don't want to play, thats fine. We'll have fun without them 
written by Cathy - Admin, May 24, 2010
You're so right! Let's have fun anyway! Jeez, I'm just too sensitive. I get on my own nerves! lol
I've lived, I've learned and I'm learning still!
I've lived, I've learned and I'm learning still!
written by Susan, May 24, 2010
There is a corollary: people starting in business network in order to, eventually, sell their products or services. I help run a large networking group and it's interesting to see the various newcomers come into our group as Johnny salesmen, promoting their products rather than creating relationships, and failing miserably. My company has built relationships built on caring and trust, and the people we've built these relationships with recommend us or become our clients.
Fact is, everybody is doing in your face advertising and finding that it doesn't work anymore. All of us are just too inundated with ads to listen anymore. The only way to sell anything is to create a relationship.
Fact is, everybody is doing in your face advertising and finding that it doesn't work anymore. All of us are just too inundated with ads to listen anymore. The only way to sell anything is to create a relationship.
written by mimulux, May 24, 2010
what can i say.. i came here and was a bit stunned at how things work here.. positively of course. i had a bit of a battle with my browser but that has been solved now.. THANKS to the fact that you responded almost immediately to my email.. and made some suggestions i followed. now THAT i like and makes me feel part of the community here. i did not get a reply such as.. go check the FAQ's (which wouldnt have helped) .. but one that made sense and solved the problem for me.. i.e. i just downloaded another browser which i use exclusively for this site so you can bet that i will try to be here at least once a day.. i also enjoy reading the forum which has a variety of interesting topics. i just wished more digital artists would speak up.. but that might still come.
so all in all.. thank you.. for this site ! it is nice being here!
best wishes from hungary
mimu
so you can bet that i will try to be here at least once a day.. i also enjoy reading the forum which has a variety of interesting topics. i just wished more digital artists would speak up.. but that might still come. so all in all.. thank you.. for this site ! it is nice being here!
best wishes from hungary
mimu
written by mooaany, May 24, 2010
Cathy dear,
It is the way of world I am afraid that when it comes to making money, Rudeness and Aggressiveness seems to be the norm. Some folks have just not been brought up right!
I often squall to the air that I pay my phone bill so that I can communicate, not for someone to call me and demand that I listen to them and their hawking of wares, at my expense. And of course the matter makes you as rude as they are, which is not good.
Total Art Soul does it right as far as I am concerned and I am personally irked if there are those out there giving you any flack what so ever. I appreciate the promotional aid I have received from the group here, but what I value more is the kindness and friendship.
I love the fact that we have people who run the gamut of normal and reserved to the nutsy and proud of it. There are a few outrageous too!
What the heck, this forum is a social option in acceptance and appreciation of each other and Art.
Wouldn't all of us benefit from that focal point in this world?
Thanks to you Cathy, and the rest of the group that I commiserate with on this and that in the forum for just being a Great bunch.
It is the way of world I am afraid that when it comes to making money, Rudeness and Aggressiveness seems to be the norm. Some folks have just not been brought up right!
I often squall to the air that I pay my phone bill so that I can communicate, not for someone to call me and demand that I listen to them and their hawking of wares, at my expense. And of course the matter makes you as rude as they are, which is not good.
Total Art Soul does it right as far as I am concerned and I am personally irked if there are those out there giving you any flack what so ever. I appreciate the promotional aid I have received from the group here, but what I value more is the kindness and friendship.
I love the fact that we have people who run the gamut of normal and reserved to the nutsy and proud of it. There are a few outrageous too!
What the heck, this forum is a social option in acceptance and appreciation of each other and Art.
Wouldn't all of us benefit from that focal point in this world?
Thanks to you Cathy, and the rest of the group that I commiserate with on this and that in the forum for just being a Great bunch.
written by inkyspider, May 25, 2010
First of all Cathy, I would like to thank you for providing this inspiring artist environment here on TAS - I appreciate as others have mentioned, the kindness and support shown by you and other members.
I agree with you that making art is not all about making money and I would question the artistic integrity of those who see it as only that. Art is a way of life and the most important thing I look for in an art work is authenticity. In my humble opinion this only happens when the maker/artist sees what they do as about , as you said : " passion, freedom of expression and doing what you love in life." I would add that connecting with your own authentic spirit is also vitally important. Sharing experiences with other creative people, as we can do on TAS, is a way of nurturing these creative passions and supporting each other to be true to ourselves.
I have a similar experience to you with respect to selling my art. Most of my sales are pretty close to home and many are by people who either live in my community or visit frequently. I do a weekly market and a number of art fairs and galleries which I really enjoy. I have never been comfortable with pushing my work on other people. I am repulsed by hardcore sales tactics and especially so when it comes from artists because I don't expect it from people whom I would think to be more sensitive. I want people to buy my work because they really like it and they feel good about their purchase, not because I bullied them into it.
Anyway, you're awesome and you're doing a great thing here and we really appreciate your integrity and honesty. Thank-you for sharing your thoughts with us Cathy.
I agree with you that making art is not all about making money and I would question the artistic integrity of those who see it as only that. Art is a way of life and the most important thing I look for in an art work is authenticity. In my humble opinion this only happens when the maker/artist sees what they do as about , as you said : " passion, freedom of expression and doing what you love in life." I would add that connecting with your own authentic spirit is also vitally important. Sharing experiences with other creative people, as we can do on TAS, is a way of nurturing these creative passions and supporting each other to be true to ourselves.
I have a similar experience to you with respect to selling my art. Most of my sales are pretty close to home and many are by people who either live in my community or visit frequently. I do a weekly market and a number of art fairs and galleries which I really enjoy. I have never been comfortable with pushing my work on other people. I am repulsed by hardcore sales tactics and especially so when it comes from artists because I don't expect it from people whom I would think to be more sensitive. I want people to buy my work because they really like it and they feel good about their purchase, not because I bullied them into it.
Anyway, you're awesome and you're doing a great thing here and we really appreciate your integrity and honesty. Thank-you for sharing your thoughts with us Cathy.
written by KarinSF, May 25, 2010
Cathy, Your site has been a lifesaver!
I only started really using the internet 6 months ago when i opened an Etsy shop. Preferring to stay out of the fray of the forums there, i felt a little trepidation about the whole thing as I realized I wasn't "marketing" myself. Having worked in the fashion business I've always detested those marketing types-so pushy and full of themselves! (OK I know I'm generalizing). Anyway when you found me as a real neophyte on Twitter, I was so happy to be part of a place where people could find out about me, without me giving anyone the "hard sell".
So, Thank you I love this place, and and if I want to bang people over the head with my spam I'll go elsewhere!
I only started really using the internet 6 months ago when i opened an Etsy shop. Preferring to stay out of the fray of the forums there, i felt a little trepidation about the whole thing as I realized I wasn't "marketing" myself. Having worked in the fashion business I've always detested those marketing types-so pushy and full of themselves! (OK I know I'm generalizing). Anyway when you found me as a real neophyte on Twitter, I was so happy to be part of a place where people could find out about me, without me giving anyone the "hard sell".
So, Thank you I love this place, and and if I want to bang people over the head with my spam I'll go elsewhere!
written by Tialys, May 25, 2010
As buying on the internet is, by its nature, impersonal, I think it is particularly important to build 'relationships' with your buyers, especially when selling art or crafts. If somebody feels a connection to the artist I believe they are more likely to buy from you and to be a repeat customer. By the same token, selling on the internet can be a lonely experience and this site helps you to feel part of a community where you can ask for advice or just have a good moan. I can't do hard sell and I find it a real turn off when people try it on me. Let's keep this a spam-free place!
written by MoagsandSmeet, May 25, 2010
GREAT post and fantastic follow-on discussion. Marketing is so difficult and it is really a very personal decision. If someone wanted mass advertised and impersonal with pushy sales, why would they buy handmade? This chain is a great reminder that art is really about the connection between the artist and the admirer - not the sales. I am so glad that I joined the TAS community.
~Moags
~Moags
written by mooaany, May 25, 2010
Moags, I agree with you too regarding marketing. You have to be seen to sell. There is no way around it. I have learned how strange it can be since I went online in late October of 2009 for the very first time. Lot of shocks and a lot of learning.
After seeing what you have to deal with, we all have a choice in how we want to present ourselves, and some of choose better ways then others. I love Sales for many gratifying reasons, and I am striving for that, but it has become secondary to getting to know people out there.
And i have noticed that using a less self serving approach has resulted in features about my jewelry in different areas, that I did not expect, but that provided me with visibility. The Sales are slow but I have decided to be patient for now! People are holding on to there money a little harder these days.
By the way, I love your jewelry and the gemstone you use are absolutely the best!
After seeing what you have to deal with, we all have a choice in how we want to present ourselves, and some of choose better ways then others. I love Sales for many gratifying reasons, and I am striving for that, but it has become secondary to getting to know people out there.
And i have noticed that using a less self serving approach has resulted in features about my jewelry in different areas, that I did not expect, but that provided me with visibility. The Sales are slow but I have decided to be patient for now! People are holding on to there money a little harder these days.
By the way, I love your jewelry and the gemstone you use are absolutely the best!
written by Blu, May 25, 2010
How can anyone criticise you for offering a free site/gallery and forum. It costs the members nothing and all you have asked for is for people to become more involved. I dislike the dump and run attitude although i do understand that some people can feel a little daunted by a forum. I would like to say well done for providing a showcase for beautiful artful work. Best wishes Blu
written by Cathy - Admin, May 27, 2010
I ask people to be more involved only because it helps them. A couple of people left this site sending me a message that the site was not working for them. All they had posted was a quick hello on the forum and their website link. I can't make people visible if I have nothing to work with.
I think there is a fear factor involved here too. When you're desperate for a sale, it's very easy to be focused just on getting that. I think it's this that makes people post and run onto the next place to leave yet more spam. I did much the same years ago when I first started out for that reason. It's quite a scary thing to pull back because you feel like you're not really 'marketing' yourself. I soon learned though that by simply building relationships, I was getting just as many sales, if not more. It is also longer lasting. When you have built that relationship, those customers are much more likely to come back to you for more.
I think there is a fear factor involved here too. When you're desperate for a sale, it's very easy to be focused just on getting that. I think it's this that makes people post and run onto the next place to leave yet more spam. I did much the same years ago when I first started out for that reason. It's quite a scary thing to pull back because you feel like you're not really 'marketing' yourself. I soon learned though that by simply building relationships, I was getting just as many sales, if not more. It is also longer lasting. When you have built that relationship, those customers are much more likely to come back to you for more.
written by ChrissyMarie, May 28, 2010
I have just found this post and smiled.... I have been on some forums where the owners lost the plot and got really riled at people trying to spam and promote themselves without any contribution.
But, sadly they were so zealous that I ended up getting upset at the treatment of anyone...
I loved it when I came in here, it is friendly and i look forward to getting to know people better.
Cathy you are doing great, just don't let the ones who do abuse it colour your endeavours...nice to see there are plenty of artists in here with a lot of integrity .
But, sadly they were so zealous that I ended up getting upset at the treatment of anyone...
I loved it when I came in here, it is friendly and i look forward to getting to know people better.
Cathy you are doing great, just don't let the ones who do abuse it colour your endeavours...nice to see there are plenty of artists in here with a lot of integrity .
written by pinkglasspalace, May 30, 2010
As a person new to letting the world see and selling on the internet, I found this site a welcomed relief. So many people responded when I posted in the forum as a newbie and the vibe is totally positive for me. My sales come from people who see my jewelry in person, nothing difficult or pushy on my part.
If people have left TAS because it doesn't fit them, good luck to them. We don't live in a vacuum thankfully and I personally enjoy the interaction on this site.
Cathy
If people have left TAS because it doesn't fit them, good luck to them. We don't live in a vacuum thankfully and I personally enjoy the interaction on this site.
Cathy
written by traciebrownart, June 04, 2010
cathy:
I agree with what everyone else has said... so I will just say DITTO!! and thank you!!! I personally can not get over how incredibly supportive the artist community is. I am still a little shy when it comes to forums and posting... but I really wanted to show my support for TAS and tell you that I think you are doing an amazing job!!
xo tracie
I agree with what everyone else has said... so I will just say DITTO!! and thank you!!! I personally can not get over how incredibly supportive the artist community is. I am still a little shy when it comes to forums and posting... but I really wanted to show my support for TAS and tell you that I think you are doing an amazing job!!
xo tracie
written by joy555tas, June 07, 2010
Hi Cathy
A comercial free haven where like minded people can get together and chat and exchange ideas in a nuturing environment is a great concept.
.Theres not a lot free with out a catch nowadays so what a refreshing change to find a site that doesnt want anything from you but your input.
True life is not all about selling, although a sale is nice. I find art and creative crafts to be holistic, a release from the pressures of life. It also Happens to give me a small income. but its being creative and having a passion for what you do that is the most satisfying.
I am new to your site and still trying to learn How to use it. By that I mean I muddle my way through on computers. I hope when Ive got the hang how things work to chat more.
Dont be put off by off handed comments. Some people just dont get it. Thats life. Keep on doing what your doing and share your entusiasm with those that do, and a big Thank you for TAS
Joy
A comercial free haven where like minded people can get together and chat and exchange ideas in a nuturing environment is a great concept.
.Theres not a lot free with out a catch nowadays so what a refreshing change to find a site that doesnt want anything from you but your input.
True life is not all about selling, although a sale is nice. I find art and creative crafts to be holistic, a release from the pressures of life. It also Happens to give me a small income. but its being creative and having a passion for what you do that is the most satisfying.
I am new to your site and still trying to learn How to use it. By that I mean I muddle my way through on computers. I hope when Ive got the hang how things work to chat more.
Dont be put off by off handed comments. Some people just dont get it. Thats life. Keep on doing what your doing and share your entusiasm with those that do, and a big Thank you for TAS
Joy
written by tangentine, June 07, 2010
Firstly, interesting post and excellent comments. I also love the goals you have for TAS.
I think any small organisation, not just art or handmade, needs to build a network. And that the relationship building forms a very important part in the overall, I'll call it marketing, because it's about communicating your business' existence to people. For me that is the only thing I expect from TAS. The fact that you still promote people at no cost (including site running costs, is a little miracle for me)
I think any small organisation, not just art or handmade, needs to build a network. And that the relationship building forms a very important part in the overall, I'll call it marketing, because it's about communicating your business' existence to people. For me that is the only thing I expect from TAS. The fact that you still promote people at no cost (including site running costs, is a little miracle for me)
written by Eirewolf, June 11, 2010
I've been lurking the forums for a little while, and I really appreciate the goals of this site. I need to be in community with other artists who are not just trying to sell me stuff. Even on Twitter (where I follow @TotalArtSoul and where I learned of this site), I will not follow-back an artist who only ever markets their wares, and/or constantly repeats the same posts over and over. I will follow artists who are personally interesting and inspiring! So it is refreshing to find an artist forum that disallows spamming and encourages creative community.
written by Cathy - Admin, June 16, 2010
Wow! If I had doubts before they sure have disappeared now! Thanks everyone. A gal needs a little encouragement from time to time. Sometimes it does feel like I'm fighting a spam war where I have to constantly remind people not to do it. I've understood though that this is partly due to the fact that people are now so used to working this way, that very often, they simply have to be shown a different way and that they soon start to enjoy the site for what it is.
Anyway, onwards and upwards I say. Keep being creative and thanks from the bottom of my heart for making this a wonderful place. I too get much out of this site.
Anyway, onwards and upwards I say. Keep being creative and thanks from the bottom of my heart for making this a wonderful place. I too get much out of this site.
written by AlwaysArt, August 07, 2010
I am late to this discussion, but ~ what is appealing to me about this site is that it is an artist site ~ period.
I am dead tired of Twitter marketers, spammers and 'buy my stuff' /click my links. Even these 'vote for me or 'like' my posts are getting to be too much. It is eery how online culture is starting to be a little reminiscent of high school...
I have my own regional market and clients, and market elsewhere online, what I want from TAS and Twitter is a place to be able to converse with other artists/writers/musicians , whatever their medium, the birds of a feather thing. To inspire and be inspired...
I just want to have a good old artistsy chat with other creative folks.
I have bought often from other artists as well... And I am like many other art consumers, I want to get to know the artist behind the work... eventually I approach artists privately through email via their site or blog ( or locally in person) But I don't respond ( and on Twitter will unfollow) when someone is non-communicative but aggressive in spamming their links or auctions ...
So Cathy ...I happen to like TAS just the way it is. I click on the #TAS links routinely on my Twitter time-line, am enjoying getting acquainted with other artists and I appreciate that this place is spam and marketing free!
I am dead tired of Twitter marketers, spammers and 'buy my stuff' /click my links. Even these 'vote for me or 'like' my posts are getting to be too much. It is eery how online culture is starting to be a little reminiscent of high school...
I have my own regional market and clients, and market elsewhere online, what I want from TAS and Twitter is a place to be able to converse with other artists/writers/musicians , whatever their medium, the birds of a feather thing. To inspire and be inspired...
I just want to have a good old artistsy chat with other creative folks.
I have bought often from other artists as well... And I am like many other art consumers, I want to get to know the artist behind the work... eventually I approach artists privately through email via their site or blog ( or locally in person) But I don't respond ( and on Twitter will unfollow) when someone is non-communicative but aggressive in spamming their links or auctions ...
So Cathy ...I happen to like TAS just the way it is. I click on the #TAS links routinely on my Twitter time-line, am enjoying getting acquainted with other artists and I appreciate that this place is spam and marketing free!
written by Sahetah, August 09, 2010
I agree with Alwaysart! The internet marketing is starting to be a lot like highschool! Sure there are places and times to advertise yourself but not in a community! I've always hated it when people send me private messages to go and buy or try their stuff! It's bad enough my grampa gets phone call after phone call from telemarketers and I've tried to tell them kindly that I don't want their product and that I don't need it and they go and say "BUT YOU DO!" ...and then I hang up!
Marketing has been getting really really invasive!
People never ever buy from those who are invasive!
Marketing has been getting really really invasive!
People never ever buy from those who are invasive!
written by lotusblossomknits, September 07, 2010
Interesting discussion here, I've only just joined so am finding my way around. i must admit to loving twitter but I do get very annoyed at those who constantly tweet links (much as mentioned above). I don't mind people tweeting one or two links ie when I write a new blog post my wordpress is set up in such a way that it links to twitter. But that's just one post - not constant. Mostly I tweet about every day stuff, ask questions, talk to people and get to know them.
It's good to know that I'm not the only one who is uncomfortable with the hard sell. I almost feel guilty sometimes about the amount of time I spend on certain forums but I have to start thinking of it as a way of building relationships that may help to promote my business in the long run.
It's good to know that I'm not the only one who is uncomfortable with the hard sell. I almost feel guilty sometimes about the amount of time I spend on certain forums but I have to start thinking of it as a way of building relationships that may help to promote my business in the long run.
written by JimJuris, September 07, 2010
Cathy, I am grateful for the website that you are providing for artist to exchange ideas on numerous subjects. I look forward to sharing ideas that I have with other artists and I hope that we all learn something new.
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